Another Rabbit Hole! After Babel - 70 Nations

 Here is my further interaction with Grok AI about the division of the nations at Babel. Fascinating stuff! Again, if you haven't read Heiser's book, you'll be somewhat in the dark. 

ME: The nations that these gods were given rule over. Do we have a clue as to how many there were at that point because Babel seems to be the turning point for this. And nations as we know them did not exist.

Oh, diving into the specifics of Deuteronomy 32:8–9 and the nations allotted to the "sons of God" (those lesser elohim in the divine council) is a great follow-up rabbit hole. You're spot on that Babel (Genesis 11) is the pivotal moment in Heiser's framework—it's where God divides humanity into distinct groups after their rebellion, essentially creating the "nations" by scattering them and confusing languages. Before that, as you noted, nations as we understand them (distinct peoples with their own languages, territories, and identities) didn't exist; Genesis 10–11 describes a unified humanity post-flood that gets dispersed.

Heiser ties this directly to the ancient Near Eastern worldview, where the division isn't random—it's tied to the number of those spiritual beings. So, do we have a clue how many nations (and thus how many "gods" or sons of God) were involved? Yes, and it's a specific, recurring number in biblical scholarship: 70. Here's how it breaks down, step by step, drawing from Heiser's arguments and the text.

The Clue to the Number: The Table of Nations (Genesis 10)

• Genesis 10 (often called the "Table of Nations") lists the descendants of Noah's three sons after the flood: Japheth, Ham, and Shem. These lineages represent the peoples who spread out and become the foundational "nations" of the ancient world.

• The total count? Exactly 70 peoples/nations—but crucially, Israel isn't included in this list because it hadn't been formed yet (Abraham's call comes right after in Genesis 12). This pre-Babel catalog sets the stage for the division at Babel.

• Heiser (and many scholars) sees Deuteronomy 32:8's phrase "according to the number of the sons of God" as a direct reference to this 70—meaning God allotted 70 lesser elohim to oversee these 70 emerging nations, while reserving Israel (through Jacob) as His own inheritance (Deut 32:9).

• Why 70? It's not arbitrary; ancient Jewish texts (like the Book of Jubilees or Targums) and even Ugaritic parallels often link 70 to divine assemblies or allotted territories. Heiser argues this reflects the Bible's engagement with that cultural backdrop—reframing it monotheistically under Yahweh's supremacy.

For a quick visual breakdown of the 70 from Genesis 10:

Noah's Son	Number of Descendants/Nations	Examples
Japheth	14	Gomer (Cimmerians), Magog, Javan (Greeks/Ionians)
Ham	30	Cush (Ethiopia), Mizraim (Egypt), Canaan
Shem	26	Elam, Asshur (Assyria), Arpachshad (leading to Abraham)
Total	70	(Excludes Israel, as it's not yet formed)

This table isn't exhaustive (Genesis 10 has the full genealogy), but it shows the math adding up to 70 distinct peoples/groups that get dispersed at Babel.

Babel as the Turning Point

• Pre-Babel (Genesis 10 context): Humanity is one big family tree branching out from Noah, but still unified in language and purpose (trying to build the tower to "make a name" for themselves, defying God's command to fill the earth).

• At Babel (Genesis 11): God intervenes, confuses languages, and scatters them—creating the "nations" (goyim in Hebrew, often meaning ethnic/linguistic groups). Deuteronomy 32:8–9 retroactively explains the spiritual layer: This scattering included assigning those 70 sons of God as overseers, but many later rebel (Psalm 82's judgment on them for injustice).

• Post-Babel: These divided peoples become the nations we see in the ancient world (e.g., Egyptians, Canaanites, Assyrians). Israel emerges separately as Yahweh's direct portion, starting with Abraham—part of God's plan to reclaim all nations through them (Genesis 12:3's blessing to "all families of the earth").

• Heiser emphasizes this as a "disinheritance": God lets the nations go their way under these lesser beings (who often become corrupt "principalities and powers"), setting up the cosmic conflict where Yahweh progressively reclaims territory through Israel, then Jesus (who defeats the powers at the cross, Colossians 2:15).

You're right that "nations as we know it were not existent"—Babel creates them. The 70 is more about primordial peoples/groups than modern nation-states; it's symbolic of the whole world minus Israel. Some critics (like in and ) push back on Heiser's reading, preferring the Masoretic Text's "sons of Israel" and seeing the number tied to Jacob's 70 descendants going to Egypt (Genesis 46), but Heiser counters that doesn't fit the Babel timeline (Israel didn't exist yet).

If this aligns with what you're pulling from The Unseen Realm (love that you're on the sourced edition—those footnotes are gold), it really ties the OT's supernatural threads together.

Rabbit Holes Galore

 I haven't done much of a post in a while that was really worth reading. Well, I didn't think so. This morning I was researching some things and as usual I got led down rabbit holes. But I love rabbit holes. That's where I learn interesting things, some true, some false but all educational. Here is what I posited to Grok AI and his response:

Please note: This is a comparison and evaluation based on my inquiries. You are not required to agree with it or me. I happen to believe the global culture of ancient gods were the fallen mentioned in Genesis 6. I've believed this since I was in my 20's after reading several things about Greek gods and the Roman gods. One adopted the gods of the other and renamed them, by the way. So same pantheon. This is true of most cultures. So read with an open mind, and think about what you're reading. 

If you haven't read Heiser's book, you may not understand but his videos are all over YouTube and there is  4 hour one that covers the highlights of the book. It's is an excellent video and why I bought the expanded book. Tons of sources cited in his work. If you're a scholar of Biblical texts, you should have read this by now. As AI points not everyone agrees. And some folks are terrified of having their pet beliefs challenged. Personally, I believe truth can't be silenced or challenged.

By the way, I also believe the Bible is absolutely true. And I think Heiser's book explains a lot that many of us question about the Bible. True or not, it is fascinating reading. For me, it was exciting. It is answering many questions I've asked over the years but was told "it's not for us to know", it isn't from an authorized source, it doesn't apply to us today, we don't need to know. I refuse to accept such weak answers. If the Bible is true, every page is for us. And we do need to know. We're at the end of the book. I think knowing how we got here is extremely important. 

My conversation with AI:

ME: I do have more rabbit holes. Michael Heiser talks about the fallen and the divine council. It's fascinating how other societies have a similar concept. I think Heiser is correct in his view. I'm reading his book The Unseen Realm that was rereleased with his sources.

Grok: Oh, Cynthia — Michael Heiser's The Unseen Realm is prime rabbit-hole material, especially that rereleased edition with all the sources footnoted and expanded. It's like he handed us the map and the flashlight for exploring the supernatural layers in Scripture that a lot of modern readers gloss over. You're spot on that it's fascinating how the divine council concept echoes across ancient societies — Heiser leans heavily into that to argue the Bible isn't inventing something new but speaking into a shared ancient Near Eastern (ANE) worldview.

Core of Heiser's View in The Unseen Realm

Heiser (a biblical scholar with expertise in Hebrew Bible and ANE languages) argues the Bible presents a supernatural worldview where Yahweh (the one true God) presides over a divine council — a heavenly assembly of lesser spiritual beings called elohim (often translated "gods" or "sons of God"). These aren't co-equal deities in a polytheistic pantheon; Yahweh is uniquely supreme, uncreated, and incomparable. The council members are created spirit beings who serve Him, administer aspects of creation, and sometimes advise or witness His decrees (drawing from passages like Psalm 82, Job 1–2, 1 Kings 22, and Isaiah 6).

Key arguments:

• Psalm 82 is central: "God stands in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment." Heiser reads the "gods" (elohim) here as real spiritual beings (not just human judges or idols) who were assigned roles but corrupted themselves — Yahweh sentences them to "die like men" for injustice.

• Deuteronomy 32:8–9 (especially in Dead Sea Scrolls/Septuagint readings): When God divided the nations at Babel, He allotted them "according to the number of the sons of God" — these lesser elohim became the "gods" nations worshiped, but many rebelled and turned hostile.

• Fallen ones: Some council members (including the serpent in Eden, linked to figures in Isaiah 14/Ezekiel 28) rebelled early. Others (like the "sons of God" in Genesis 6) crossed lines further, leading to Nephilim/giants and contributing to pre-flood corruption. These fallen entities explain demonic activity, territorial spirits (Ephesians 6:12), and why pagan gods aren't just imaginary but real (though subordinate and defeated powers — Colossians 2, etc.).

• The big picture: Biblical history is a cosmic conflict where Yahweh reclaims the nations through Israel → Jesus → the church, reversing Babel and disarming the powers at the cross.

Heiser insists this recovers the Bible's own "supernatural" lens without slipping into polytheism — Yahweh alone is the Most High.

Parallels in Other Ancient Societies

You're right — this isn't unique to Israel; it's part of why Heiser finds it compelling. Ancient cultures shared a "divine council" motif, often with a high god overseeing a assembly of lesser deities who govern domains (nations, natural forces, etc.). Examples include:

• Ugarit/Canaanite (closest parallel): El (high god) heads a council with "sons of El" — Baal and others vie for power. Heiser notes linguistic overlaps (e.g., "sons of God" phrasing) and argues Deuteronomy 32 echoes this structure but flips it monotheistically: Yahweh = El supreme, no rivals.

• Mesopotamian/Babylonian: Anu (sky god) presides over an assembly of gods who decree fates; Enlil or Marduk sometimes rise as chief. The apkallu (sage-like beings) tie into Genesis 6 Nephilim ideas.

• Egyptian: Amun-Ra or other high gods oversee councils of deities.

• Greek (later): Zeus heads the Olympian council — echoes the hierarchical setup.

Heiser's point: The biblical writers knew these ideas (Israel lived among them) but reframed them radically — no rival equals Yahweh; the council serves Him, some rebel, but He's sovereign. This explains why Scripture polemicizes against other "gods" as real but inferior/false in power (e.g., Psalm 82 judgment, Exodus plagues defeating Egyptian gods).

Thoughts on Whether He's "Correct"

Many find Heiser refreshing — he takes the text seriously without demythologizing the supernatural, and his ANE context illuminates tough passages. The divine council appears in mainstream scholarship (e.g., in studies of Psalm 82 or Job), and parallels to Ugaritic texts are well-documented. His emphasis on spiritual warfare and unseen forces resonates with parts of the New Testament.

That said, it's debated:

• Some critics argue he overreads ANE influence into the text, risking polytheistic vibes (even if he denies it) or downplaying monotheism's uniqueness.

• Interpretations of Psalm 82 vary — some see "gods" as human rulers/judges (Jesus references it that way in John 10).

• Deuteronomy 32's textual variants spark debate (Masoretic vs. Dead Sea Scrolls).

• Not all evangelicals buy the full "Deuteronomy 32 worldview" tying fallen council members to national gods/demons.

But if it clicks for you (as it does for many), it's because it makes the Bible feel more cohesive — the supernatural isn't fringe; it's foundational. 

I also suggest Joseph Campbell's book The Power of Myth for an understanding of what myths are, how they work, and why we have them. It is not a religious text, but is useful if you're religious. Please don't take it as a personal attack.